Episode 13 - Apr 19, 2021

This episode is also available in a video version on YouTube.

When Jason Hardink discovered Shawn Okpebholo’s music on Facebook, he knew he had to perform something by this incredible composer. But as he began learning ψαλμοὶ καὶ ὕμνοι καὶ ᾠδαὶ πνευματικαί (psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs), he struggled with whether it was appropriate for him, as a white pianist, to be performing a piece rooted deeply in the musical and religious traditions of Nigeria, African American culture, and Papua New Guinea.

Jeff Counts speaks with Jason about the responsibility performers have to examine their own repertoire choices and present works from diverse voices in a way which respects their origins while bringing them to new audiences.

Jason mentions the following articles, pieces, and performances in this conversation:

Anthony R. Green: “What the Optics of Music Say to Black Composers”, in NewMusic USA
https://nmbx.newmusicusa.org/what-the-optics-of-new-music-say-to-black-composers/

“O Freedom” (arr. Okpebholo) — Wayne Arthur Paul, baritone | Javier Arrebola, piano
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7zGZTeXikk

Two Black Churches — Will Liverman, baritone | Paul Sanchez, piano
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHehlg94NQc

Jeff Counts | host
Jason Hardink | pianist

recording mastered by Michael Carnes
produced by Chris Myers (argylearts.com)

Transcript

Jeff Counts

Welcome to The NOVA Podcast. I'm Jeff Counts, your guest host, and I'm thrilled to be joined today by Jason Hardink. Not only featured pianist on this program, but the Artistic Director Emeritus of the Chamber Music Series. Welcome, Jason

Jason Hardink

Hey! Thanks for having me.

Jeff Counts

It's good to see you. I know about the composer of this work, Shawn Okpebholo, from you, which I could say about a lot of composers in my short history as a music person. How did you discover Shawn? What was the introduction?

Jason Hardink

It’s from Facebook. I mean, Facebook gets a bad rap for a lot of deserved reasons, but there's some great things about being a musician alive today and the way which you can connect with composers that you just couldn't, I don't know, even 20 years ago, right? So he was sort of suggested. We have a lot of mutual friends on Facebook in common, and so he was suggested, and I clicked on his profile as a composer, and I just started checking out his music and was blown away instantly.

Jeff Counts

Let's talk about the piece for a second. Three different cultural perspectives on the Christian hymn. What was your way into this music? What did you do? Did you study the source material? What’s your...

Jason Hardink

Do you mean as a performer or just listening to it?

Jeff Counts

Both.

Jason Hardink

Yeah. I think, ultimately, one of the benefits of this whole change of lifestyle during the pandemic... I'm an orchestra musician. Just kind of used to that grind of anywhere from one to four different programs a week, and I'm just listening to music differently now, because our life is so changed.

Jeff Counts

Sure

Jason Hardink

And I'm just more open and wanting to listen to what other people have to say. So I find that in an instance like this, that the emotional... the immediate emotional response I had to this music is in a lot of ways more important to me than anything else. Just from the first sounds of hearing his music and hearing this piece, I didn't need a way in anywhere but through here.

Jeff Counts

Sure

Jason Hardink

But I don't think that's what you're asking me.

Jeff Counts

Well, I am curious about... I mean, look, I know your history. I know that you've studied Messiaen intensively. And I know that one of the things that Shawn and Messiaen have in common— he'd probably be thrilled to be compared— but is that they're both people who come from a perspective of great faith.

Jason Hardink

Of course. Yeah.

Jeff Counts

And that could certainly be said about music throughout history. That's not a new concept. But for me, not a very religious person, I usually find my way in through the rituals, through the readings, through the subject matter, which I find very interesting. And the writing is often very beautiful. And I know this three looks at the the Christian hymn is a way in, if you studied the source material, if you looked at the words. I know in one of the movements, you actually have to vocalize a little bit and sing some of the words. So how did you find your way in as a performer to this piece?

Jason Hardink

It wasn't hard. I mean, I hate to be so reductive, but the piece is just so good, I didn't have to think about it. I mean, like in the case of Messiaen, if you think about a movement like “L'esprit de joie”, tenth movement of the Vingt regards. I played that movement before I wrote my dissertation, and I studied the plainchant upon which the music is based, and that gave me a deeper understanding of the music. But it didn't change that emotional relationship I had with it, so I sort of... just restating how important that seems to be to me these days.

And I also find that once upon a time, I had this aversion to, like, if I thought I heard someone else's style, like Ives or Messiaen or Copland or whatever, in a living composer's music, I tended to be... not dismissive, but like “I know where you got that idea”, and I find myself letting go of that, which I think is very healthy for me. So like I hear a lot of Ives in this piece, and I know that Ives is an important composer to Shawn. And if there was a way in, maybe that's it for me. Just that sort of Ives-ian… you think about the hazy qualities of the second movement and the way the hymn tune is sort of woven around church bells and these sort of strange meandering lines with the pedal down, like echoing through a field… I’m not really describing it very well, but it's that I've sound, I think, that probably was my initial… like, “I know what this is. I know how to play Ives.”

Jeff Counts

My big reveal for this interview was to tell you that I actually heard Ives in this music. No one will ever believe that I thought of that before you said it. It's forever lost to time. But I totally agree with you. I heard Concord Sonata in this piece.

I know that when you can, you like to talk to composers that you're working with for the first time. So did you and Shawn speak?

Jason Hardink

Oh yeah, we spoke. This is perhaps the quickest relationship formed with a composer, in that, you know, I listened to a few of his spiritual arrangements and then his song cycle Two Black Churches, and then I found the solo piano piece. I wrote him right away. This is all within like 20 minutes of clicking on his Facebook page. Like, I need to get the score to this piece! So the solo piano piece, I practiced for about an hour that day, and I just had this lightning bolt of “Do I get to play this piece?” Is it, you know, just sort of going to the question of “Should white singers sing spirituals?” and “What is that tune that the second movement is based on?” and “If I have to sing and vocalize, if it's an old spiritual, then maybe I’m sort of crossing a line?”

Anyway, so I wrote him, and I was sort of stammering out all these ideas. What colonialists did to Africa. And the first movement is based on these African rhythms and African version of a hymn— Nigerian. So we had a Zoom a couple days after this email exchange to just talk it through. And he was so supportive. And just amazing to just meet up with a complete stranger and have this really frank discussion about race and society and politics and music. And talking through this question of— I mean, I am the first white dude to play this piece. So I think it was actually an appropriate question to ask.

Jeff Counts

Maybe not even something he'd thought about before you brought it up

Jason Hardink

Yeah, I don't know. Yeah

Jeff Counts

You know, I know, because we talk, that this question is something that's occurring to you a lot. And I think it's probably having... the sensitivity to these issues is probably influencing a lot of the composers you're seeking out these days. Can you talk a little bit about... I know that you're constantly on the look out for new voices to interpret. What kinds of things are you seeking out these days? I mean, was finding Shawn part of a larger goal of yours right now?

Jason Hardink

Well, like I said, the initial connection was random. A Facebook algorithm. So I wasn't looking for him specifically. I didn't go through some database and stumble across his music there.

Jeff Counts

I'm suggesting that Facebook might know the answer to this question.

Jason Hardink

Yeah, seriously! Because I feel like when it comes to the question of white supremacy in classical music, and asking the fundamentals, I feel a little bit... I mean, I haven't gone to AA meetings or anything like that, but I honestly feel like asking myself the question: “Have I participated as a classical musician in white supremacy at any level by my repertoire choices?” I'm sorry. The answer is yes. My repertoire hasn't been diverse enough. And I know that's... you know.

I guess, I'm only interested in looking at the mirror, because I don't I can't turn my gaze out at other organizations and get all judgy about what other people are doing. The important thing is to figure this out for myself first. And I just honestly feel like the structure of— a lot of the way the classical music industry sort of generates artists and promotes composers and musicians— feels dismissive to people of color.

And so what can we do about that? And I will tell you that the...

Okay, I don't want to derail the conversation here. But with my own journey, I think I was, maybe when Black Lives Matter first started, you know. Starting to read Baldwin, Ta-Nehisi Coates. Like I need to educate myself. I don't read enough Black authors, and I need to. Like, I've got work to do. Yeah.

But I still had that feeling. I just like... I feel like I'm in a confessional right now. You should be behind a screen.

Jeff Counts

Lightning would strike.

Jason Hardink

Because I didn't mean to go here, but I still had that feeling of like, “Oh, society in America! But I'm powerless to do anything!” And here I am, a pianist who plays music and loves playing music by living composers. So I don't have to participate in this, like having my solo repertoire be 99.9% dead white dudes, like classical pianists can sometimes do. I have the ability to move beyond that. We all do!

But again, I'm looking inward when asking these questions. There was a great article that came out in 2019 by this composer Anthony R. Green. It's titled “What the Optics of New Music Say to Black Composers”. And that's a great resource, I think, for any musician if you're asking this question. It's a great perspective from a Black composer about how things look and what feels right. Talking about, like, is doing one concert with all African-American composers during Black History Month for your series... Is that the answer? And really diving into those questions. I found that to be, also, just formative in my attitude of... him just asking the basic question of like... well, not asking. Just saying, “Yeah, there is something you can do: play play music by Black composers.” Like, oh. Yeah. I could do that.

So this is a very long answer to your question.

Jeff Counts

It's important

Jason Hardink

Obviously on my mind, and has me kind of worked up these days. Because I think when you see... I mean, white supremacy's talked a lot about in our surroundings. But I think the classical music world... You know, we're discussing it, but I think like most things, we’ll be a little slower to really adjust.

Jeff Counts

Slow to react does define our industry. There's no question about that. But I've appreciated this inward looking you've been doing, because I've been able to learn vicariously through the things you're discovering.

So one of the things I appreciated about learning about Shawn through you is that... You always give me homework when we talk about composers. So let's give the listeners some homework with regards to Shawn. Name two or three pieces of his that they can find easily online that they should be listening to, to get to know him a little bit better.

Jason Hardink

The first thing I would suggest is his arrangement of the spiritual “Oh Freedom.” It's a great performance that was done at the Colburn School. I forget the festival where it was performed, but get into YouTube, “Shawn Okpebholo Oh Freedom,” this will pop right up. It's just like a four-minute arrangement of a spiritual. Voice and piano. Mind-blowing.

Jeff Counts

It's earth-shattering. There's no question.

Jason Hardink

And then if you have more time, his song cycle Two Black Churches is a longer, maybe 17-18 minute piece. The two churches that are being talked about, I believe, are the famous Birmingham bombing in the 60s and then the more recent shooting... the Dylan Roof... The point being that that is an amazing journey, that piece. And that's really where I was listening to the piano writing and the way it interacts with the voice. And just thinking, “Tell me he has some solo piano music, because I just am in love with this music!”

Jeff Counts

Well I can say, having listened to those pieces, they are a great introduction to his music. And I think a really great primer to this piece that they're about to hear you play. Which, I know you've been on this journey. I've appreciated experiencing it vicariously through you, and I think you do this piece a great deal of justice

Jason Hardink

Oh, thank you.

Jeff Counts

It’s a wonderful performance. And links to those pieces that Jason mentioned will be on the show notes for this podcast. So please, as I mentioned, do your homework, and check this out. It's well worth your time. Jason, thank you so much for being here. Thank you for the candor. Amazing conversation.

Jason Hardink

Thanks for having me.

Narrator

Jason Hardink performs Shawn Okpebholo’s psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs on the next concert in NOVA’s season, available beginning Friday, April 23, at novaslc.org.

NOVA has received generous support from the Utah Legislature & Utah Division of Arts and Museums, Lawrence T. and Janet T. Dee Foundation, Salt Lake County Zoo Arts & Parks, George S. and Dolores Doré Eccles Foundation, iZotope, Salt Lake City Arts Council, Cultural Vision Fund, Dominion Energy, Rocky Mountain Power Foundation, Alice M. Ditson Fund of Columbia University, and the Aaron Copland Fund for Music.

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